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Apr-03-2007 17:11printcomments

Officer Involved Shooting in Salem Cleared by Grand Jury

"The investigation revealed the situation was fast moving, chaotic and Mr. Nickell was armed with a what appeared to be a handgun, but turned out to be a pellet gun."- Bill Kolhmeyer, Salem Police Spokesman

59-year-old Rockne Mack Nickell
59-year-old Rockne Mack Nickell was shot by officers on March 10th 2007, the shooting was ruled justified
Photo: Salem Police

(SALEM) - The Marion County Grand Jury has cleared two Salem Police officers in a shooting that occurred March 10th. The suspect survived the shooting that was actually meant to be a taser shot.

Salem Police Spokesman Bill Kohlmeyer indicates that in spite of criticism, the officer was within his rights in using the gun.

"Given the totality of the circumstances the use of force by the officers was justified." He says the officer involved shooting occurred on March 10th at 1351 Peace St S.E. when officers Rogers "RJ" Smith and Jared Noack responded to a report of a man who was threatening his neighbor with a knife. The suspect, Rockne Mack Nickell, was wounded and transported to Salem Hospital where he was treated. "As in all officer involved shootings the case was investigated by the Oregon State Police and presented to the Grand Jury."

Kohlmeyer says this is done in order to avoid any possible conflict of interest. "We have just received the investigative reports in this case. The investigation revealed the situation was fast moving, chaotic and Mr. Nickell was armed with a what appeared to be a handgun, but turned out to be a pellet gun."

The investigation also revealed that both officers were involved in a violent physical struggle trying to subdue Mr. Nickell, "and that during this struggle Officer Smith has indicated he believed he was firing his Taser when he pulled the trigger of his firearm." "We are very concerned even though the use of deadly force was justified in this case the officer's intention was to use his Taser and not his firearm. The Salem Police Department conducts our own internal investigation and critique to determine whether department policies were followed and if there are training or procedural issues which need to be addressed."

Mar-10-2007: Salem Police Shoot, Critically Wound 59-Year-Old Man Armed With Gun




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Retired Contractor April 11, 2007 2:11 pm (Pacific time)

LaMarche re: the voting problems, throwouts, etc. . Please note that thru-out the nation where there are problems it's almost always a democratic controlled precinct. The 2000 Florida vote was manipulated by the media so tens of thousands did not vote (Panhandle area)...2004, Bush won by over 300,000 votes in a state he was not suppose to win. But still the left cannot look at the real facts. The same may be said about the race hustlers out there who cannot handle the facts about the Duke case.


Retired Contractor April 11, 2007 2:05 pm (Pacific time)

LaMarche, I had a number of professor's like Howard Zinn. They all pretty well promulgated the need for us to re-visit "tenure" and the problem it presents in removing incompetent anti-Americans from the faculty's in our colleges, both public and private. Zinn, like Kerry-Kohn had a very adverse impact on your fellow combat soldiers and millions upon millions of people in S.E. Asia. His parents, were they running away from the family's of murdered gentiles in Russia/Soviet Union? Yeah, I know the answer to that question. Just like I know what his answer would be re: did Neil Goldschmidt (an addmitted child rapist/pedophile) do anything wrong even if his multiple victims were under the age of three? LaMarche, there are many excellent historians out there, Zinn, is not one of them. On a contempory level, I would say he and Krugman of the NY Times have a lot in common, which is their complete inability to understand their environments. Though clueless people like that are generally very happy, so being clueless isn't all that bad I guess...


S.LaMarche; April 9, 2007 12:07 am (Pacific time)

R.C.- have you read anything by Howard Zinn? and or opinions of him?, and I will Vote!, I take it serious but last two "elections" discarded greater % if not all absentee ballots. Now stationed in martial law kingdom that took one day to remove the head of state in suprisingly non-lethal coup,outcome still being debated. Islamic and other fundamentalists in other provincial areas but not receiving any incoming personally nor locally as of yet. Country literally surrounded by despotic governments, I do care and worry a lot about the welfare of th U.S. and how we are looked upon from the "outside", and this story of a Salem policeman firing his weapon in line of duty seemed to be tip of iceberg.,so I'll be vigilant of them.,(icebergs),no pun intended., really.


Retired Contractor April 8, 2007 5:57 pm (Pacific time)

LaMarche, reguarding your question about what an election is? I have no idea what you mean by that inquiry. But to be on the safe side: VOTE! Just not for a liberal if survival is something you desire! WWI and Woodrow Wilson; WWII and FDR; Korea and Truman; Vietnam and LBJ; Terror War and future Battlefields...jury is still out but I would suggest Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Pelosi and Reid as the ones that will be associated with this country's largest ever casualty count by pevious and current misdeeds. I don't believe we as a nation will survive if a democrat gets in the Whitehouse, they know nothing of what it takes to survive, much less win. We are in some very big trouble LaMarche, big trouble. Recall some of your combat experiences, remember how incredibly fast the s#$@ hit the fan. You could only react, but you and your men had your training to help pull you through. What's coming up is going to be internal, and it also will be incredibly fast acting. Be vigilant. Being somewhat of a "controlled" paranoid is a good state of mind during these times. Always prepare for the worst case scenario, then you won't come up short. Anyway, happy Easter to all you Christians out there. Just finished a great prime rib with family. Good night and God Bless America.


S.LaMarche; April 7, 2007 10:28 pm (Pacific time)

R.C.- just got off the Kerry-Kohn page,(one of several),very intesting to understate it, so I owe you one. I'll keep going on this. Just out of curiosity, is there anyone in the leadership not selling themselves?, I mean I already see the Dems, (yes!, I voted Democrat last election, I admit it!), not doing what they could Iraq wise as they led us to believe, and the 08' campaign funds raised now take page one, while our troops and Afghans and Iraqi's and Palestinians and Israeli's still die. In your opinion is the election "process" a diversion?, inneffectual?, or what? Maybe I can't ask the question right but I,m serious and may grudgingly enter your view, out of respect for your right to state it.,and maybe I got it wrong. though Kerry was not influential on my personal left of center pos. Over and out..


S.LaMarche; April 7, 2007 9:51 pm (Pacific time)

R.C.-I didn't know that was his real name, I'll check up on it. ,and thanks, it's comfortingly reassuring of you to pray for me.,depending on non lethal content of dialogue course. Do I have "clearance" to mention you in same? and Yes, I think I know the "real" heroes whose names are etched on the Wall, I don't feel I was one of them., but great fortune allowed me their introduction. Semper Fi!


Retired Contractor April 7, 2007 9:18 pm (Pacific time)

LaMarche. John Kerry's real last name is Kohn. The name Kerry works good for running as Irish in Mass. Maybe you know the reason why he really changed it from Kohn? As far as you being a criminal for serving in Vietnam...of course not! But you and I know who the real heroes are, don't we! I make too much money to have a talk show young man. Good luck to you, and my prayers that you start seeing how the world really is, maybe you will, someday.


S.LaMarche; April 7, 2007 7:32 pm (Pacific time)

Omission?, I may have missed something, and I didn't get anything, (just like the rest of America) from Kerry, at least not yet. And I don't expect to be suporting him in future. And if you don't want to I.D. it's o.k. with me., but I really don't know what you mean Kerry-Kohn wise. Personally I don't think I am a criminal and didn't think you were either. I do think Clinton was/is,(Bubba), and Nixon and Bush and Cheney and Libby and Gonzales and Rice, Ken Lay and Enron and Arial Sharon and Yasser Arafat and I am suspicious of Paul Wolfawitz and Harriet Miers and J.Bolton too, and newly appointed ambassador Fox.,and Karzai is not level or Musharif either., and Rove? Fox news? or the wastefullness of either and all poitical parties while our troops are dying, and any of them that steal the trust of the people they are slected to represent, but it's bigger than "comment" space allows. And I could be all wrong too. I know who you are anyway. I didn't just forget all the good training I received in the Marines. Old Breed! Gung Ho!, (it's a Cantonese expression)), and "I'll see you in hell", in the liberal sense of course. Have you ever considered hosting your own talk show?


Retired Contractor April 6, 2007 11:03 am (Pacific time)

LaMarche I assume that via your omission of response that Sen. John Kerry-Kohn called you (read: all Vietnam veterans) a war criminal that the last thing a reasonable person would do is ID themselves. What say you my liberal-way person?


S.LaMarche; April 5, 2007 5:32 pm (Pacific time)

you have to I.D. yourself.


Retired Contractor April 5, 2007 11:29 am (Pacific time)

PEOPLE:
The NEA is the National Education Association "teachers union!" THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE WITH OUR EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM IS BECAUSE OF THIS OUTFIT! HANK, GIMME AND THE PEOPLE HERE A BREAK! THIS UNION LITERALLY CONTROLS THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY. ha ha ha BOY HANK, YOU AND WC FIELDS...
www.nea.org/index.html


Retired Contractor April 5, 2007 11:20 am (Pacific time)

Hank so who do you think has had the most negative impact on our military? Having talked to more informed paper target shooting WWII liberals than you could possibly imagine, though I imagine you could imagine quite a few of those just like you, none of those would ever refute the legislative evidence of just what the loony lefty's have done. People, believe me on this, I assume Hank will cherry-pick some absurd data, but it is the liberals who have gotten us into a big mess with how they have damaged our military. Hank's experience in the military as a non-combatant enlisted man should speak for itself re: his accuarate assessment of what got our military into our current situation, but things are improving quickly. Liberals just cannot help themselves. I imagine you and Ted Kenneddy would solve all our problems, right Hank? You embarrass my Irish ancestory. Geesh! As far as Walter Reed, blown all out of proportion. Biggest problem there was having all those union personnel, lazy creatures you cannot fire, who receive cover from the demo leadership. The Veterans Administration had it's patient base multiplied numerous times because of Clinton's absurd tinkering and not providing adequate funding safeguards. But that is another can of worms that I would like the Kings to sniff around on...can provide, time permitting , some direction. Though I know of a few reporters that are getting some data together at this time. Hank you should avoid those area's you know nothing about. Opinions are fine, but as a reporter, you should be more responsible!


Hank Ruark April 5, 2007 9:52 am (Pacific time)

To all: An Op Ed is 'an informed opinion" --the ONLY worthwhile kind !. SO we have an obligation to share sources, documentation and any other basic information, when we seek your understanding and cogitation. Since education and its known deficiencies was basic to current dialog, try this one to see-with-own-eyes on basic information: www.nea.org/index.html Nothing like asking those working on-liine for practical answers -- OR do you prefer such as provided by political cults ?


Hank Ruark April 5, 2007 8:57 am (Pacific time)

To all:
After review of ongoing here, need to remind-all that:
Assumptions and generalities even when oft-repeated stand as unproven, unsupported unless source is ID'd.
I.E., one can say (almost) ANYthing here --even political preposterousness-- so long as personal ID and proof of right to speak are NOT demanded.
That's why we here have full STAFF information, on public record.
That's why we describe in detail our WHAT and WHY of how we DO our Op Eds.
Comments welcome on any level any time...but your own credibility still depends on full identity known to all who read here.
Which is why I constantly invite-ID and direct contact.


Hank Ruark April 5, 2007 8:23 am (Pacific time)

Joe:
Longtime painful ride-along experience leads me to agree with your major points --but it was not liberals who sliced Armed Forces funding, succumbed to desperately deficient planning for Iraq et al, and allowed WReed perversion per veterans.
ANY generalization dangerous in deep-issues; your points deserve better surround.


Joe April 5, 2007 7:39 am (Pacific time)

Citizen: The problem between police and the public is not over agressiveness, it's that the public hasn't the first clue of the reality of law enforcement. Generally speaking, the majority of the public lives in this bubble of protection, and the only basis of knowledge they have of LE is from the news media. Let's face it, the Statesman Urinal would need a transplant if their heart bleeds any more. There in lays the problem. You defend Liberals making them out to be monks who live a life of poverty in order to help their fellow man, who are we kidding. The problem is that you can fight crime with butterflys and love songs, you can't force drunk bad guys to drop guns by just being nice to them and offering to color them a picture with earth safe crayons. Like it or not, some times you have to get dirty and fight, thank God we had brave "citizens" back in WWII or we'd all be speaking German, but I guess that'd be ok with liberals because it would embrace diversity.


Hank Ruark April 5, 2007 6:31 am (Pacific time)

Simply cannot resist: Most will remember that classic movie scene, and the dialog that run: "Watch out...that elephant is gonna.... !" Has already happened, to far too many of us !


Retired Contractor April 4, 2007 9:27 pm (Pacific time)

Hank,it seems the evidence is simply something you ignore. You know that story, what part of the elephant the blind man touches becomes the elephant. Your ideology has had a very adverse impact on your critical thinking skills. There are many people who are way beyond your academic level (and below) who at one time shared your lefty philosophy, but after seeing the reams of evidence could no longer in good conscience continue the charade of supporting the overt damage the left has been doing to American institutions. Good luck to you, and may you get your head out of that dark place.


Retired Contractor April 4, 2007 6:25 pm (Pacific time)

Hank I have years of experience in "real world" educational assessment, analysis, along with training and research methodology in education. In both public and private environments, plus the military. Something to consider in this particular topic of discussion deals with how the far left has adversely impacted our educational system and squandered our treasury. This in turn has negatively impacted our society in a catastrophic manner, e.g. , as above article alludes to, we can and should demand higher and higher caliber personnel be hired via civil service procedures. In addition, a familiarization of educational philosophies by lay people is all I was suggesting. As far as your background and experience, it seems that all your offering is not so much a reason why the current educational system has failed by addressing the huge databases that provide "evidence", but spinning some excuses for "why", to prevent blame being put where it belongs? Which is the far left's incompetence! There are innumerable educational templates from 40 plus years ago that could be put in place for our students, and performance standards would go up post haste. Good luck on your doctorate, but look at some of the people who are PHD's that are teaching now and designing class instructional programs...as said earlier, we need a paradigm shift. Time for the "liberal" way people to move out of the way and let the adults take control, once again. P.S. One does not need to bandy names re: the left's abysmal failure(s), simply look at the evidence Hank. You have a tough time with that don't you, why? It's all layed out, years and years of data that show how the left has so screwed up our educational system. Look at public education in New York City...what happened? It's a mess, so many have left the public program for private schools. Why Hank? More excuses coming from the left, it's like you all have your lefty talking points emailed to you. Admitting your mistakes would be a good first step towards developing some wisdom...you know you are destined to lose this argument, right does trump the wrong, eventually.


Hank Ruark April 4, 2007 6:24 pm (Pacific time)

Parting gift for all: see www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17472.htm


Hank Ruark April 4, 2007 5:55 pm (Pacific time)

SO as final on this one: "Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth" -- Henry D. Thoreau. FYI, he was a pragmatist. =


Hank Ruark April 4, 2007 5:52 pm (Pacific time)

Citizen: You are "right on"; Comments need close focus on story and issue it raises. We're well aware, working on openness policy. Personally, in future will refuse more always-delicious opportunities to castigate more pompousness and political posturing, beyond Shot 3 or so. Thanks for your patience and kind comment, needed here. working on


Citizen April 4, 2007 4:53 pm (Pacific time)

Hank and others, I do not mean to be rude, but your discussion has diverged far from the initial discussion. I wish that Salem News would not have removed its discussion forum, since this would be a great place for discourse on issues that are not directly story-related. Regardless, I wish you continued success with your news site. Having an alternative to the SJ is welcomed. Don't forget that your responsibility, as a member of the press, extends to the investigation and reporting of matters that may not be "popular". Issues against the police are difficult to discuss, since we want to believe that the police are always promoting "right actions". When they (the police) do not, citizens should not ignore the results, especially those against honest, law-abiding citizens. Police cover-up and misconduct can occur. If you ask yourself if you wholly believe the contrary, then you become the best friend of totalitarianism.


Hank Ruark April 4, 2007 4:33 pm (Pacific time)

Cntrctr: Posted Bronstein-er for you, but you evade response to that story. If we gonna bandy-names, how re Norquist-Abramson as strong starting point, with full cabal history deeply documented ? For 4th time, invite you to dialog-direct. What's fearful for you about that ? We need to offer others here surcease from non-subtle nonentities.


Hank Ruark April 4, 2007 4:27 pm (Pacific time)

Cntrctr: In last, I assumed you meant pragmatism...


Hank Ruark April 4, 2007 4:24 pm (Pacific time)

Cntrctr: Agree --have had several, at doctoral level, and taught some, too. BUT all they will do is to prepare one for realistic evaluation from full working experience, with learners, others teaching which occurs in real life in ways not well recognized in the courses, and perhaps --if you are fortunate-- as consultant faced with demands never before met. I.e., fair to say here: "Been there, done that" -- and still learning. NOW going to complete D.Ed work, if wheels don't fall off first...allbutdone after 3 yrs at Indiana U., tough outfit !


Retired Contractor April 4, 2007 3:07 pm (Pacific time)

To Everyone: May I suggest a graduate course in Philosophy of Education (or ask to audit one). Go learn how idealism, realism, existentialism and pragmetism has been applied to the evolution of American education. Try to understand a concept that Hank may have not grasped, i.e. , "Climate of the Times". One should view historical records from an appreciation of what was "happening" at that time. To make a value judgement based on a contemporary perspective does a great disservice to you and the historical record you are reviewing. Furthermore educational standards and approaches were widely varied in times past. That's probably why east coast people are so confused...


Citizen April 4, 2007 3:05 pm (Pacific time)

I just want people to understand the the "check" on police should not be limited to shootings. There are many other ways the police can intentionally cause injury, if they so desire. I am aware of pepper spray, taser, shoving a handcuffed individual, and overly-tight handcuff injuries, to name a few. None of these should be tolerated, yet for some reason, some of the police in the City of Salem police have not yet learned what freedom, discipline and integrity mean. Do you know the total number of tort claims and lawsuits against the City of Salem? Do you know what the total payout has been over the past decade for police misconduct / personal injury liability? Arrests of police seldom occur. The citizens do not have the right to make citizen arrests, which would likely make the statistics more public.


Retired Contractor April 4, 2007 2:59 pm (Pacific time)

Hank I have a very good friend named Bronstein, I in no way would belittle this man. We played college football and served in combat together. You seem to have another take on this last name, what is it if you don't mind me asking? Seems that you overreact to some things I post then under-react to others. The "liberal" way I guess. Wasn't that the same way people like J Edgar Hoover, Reagan, or any conservative leader gets slammed by those of that perspective? Then minimize the abberrant behavior of those on the dark side, e.g. , the Clintoon, Sandy Berger, and on and on?


Hank Ruark April 4, 2007 2:57 pm (Pacific time)

It's redundant as well as redolent re family, but full disclosure: Robert Ruark, famous novelist, is my cousin; one of early Ruarks was pirate off Maryland coast, executed before Revolution by Brits. DO believe I have some of his blood...!!


Hank Ruark April 4, 2007 2:41 pm (Pacific time)

To all: Review of Comments may shed light for you on early genesis of American education system: To build workers complacent and easily managed for ongoing heavy-business, ag-industrial and financial interests. Fortunately we overcame that putrid start in education, and now have much freer, better prepared, and free-thinking group at or near maturity...as Comments here surely show. IF we must mention family, mine was once O'Ruark, touted beautifully in early Irish literature --for what that may be worth these days !


Hank Ruark April 4, 2007 2:15 pm (Pacific time)

Cntrctr: Regret your-last, especially since it contains your ONLY following-one re "Bronstein". Yr family history, as related here, should preclude any-such. You may know situation name reminded me about: Izzy Stone vs U.S. Sect'y of State...with ongoing public outcry...we may get some here, too. Nvrthls, best regards and look to learn from you -- if you ever get up guts enough to come from behind curtain.


Hank Ruark April 4, 2007 1:57 pm (Pacific time)

To all: Watch for upcoming Op Ed to survey and surveil this form of political virus, so now prevalent in some parts of our citezenry, and damaging in so many ways persons who really know are writing books about it...


Retired Contractor April 4, 2007 1:50 pm (Pacific time)

"Rush is a Band" certainly acknowledges what I posted below, i.e. those on the left when confronted with factual information that exposes them for the limited IQ's they have (genetic?!), they then either evade, divert and cherry-pick or insult and demonize. The above-referenced individual embraces the latter behavior Hank. A student of yours? Ha Ha Ha ha. I just love people like that, really exposes what makes up a substantial percentage of the moonbats, aka "useful idiots", the kind Bronstein cultivated Hank.


Retired Contractor April 4, 2007 1:40 pm (Pacific time)

I love to use Washington DC when it comes to crime data. The 2nd Amendment does not exist there, but they lead the nation in violent crime, including handgun crime. Look at Vermont, you don't even need a CHL to carry concealed, and statistically no major problem. In DC they have literally the highest expenditures for pupil costs, teacher salary's, low class size, and whatever else the "lberal" way people can fund beyond reason, but they have the lowest test scores in the nation for literally every academic measurement, e.g., math, reading and science. As stated previously, the liberals throw many at problems, wasting our treasury, then asking for more and more tax/fee increases. Though Hank, maybe you have another reason why DC does so poorly. Please don't say poverty, because that is statistically refuted. What else could it be? You know all the urban area's are having similar problems. Use to not be that way. Jefferson High school in Portland is down for the count...remember Terry Baker? Poor white kid from Jefferson who won the Heisman and graduated from college with academic honors. Hundreds of thousands like him who overcame poverty from years past. Then it was a time of no-nonsense conservative teacher's who actually taught their student's! Look at what you on the left have done to our fellow Americans. And most are utterly clueless as to what has happened to them. Perfect liberal crime? No! Because we on the right love our fellow Americans and will continue to fight for them. Amen


Rush is a Band April 4, 2007 1:21 pm (Pacific time)

Who is this retired contractor jerk? Get the hell out of Dodge man, you are so full of it. You speak one lie backed up against the next one, the right wing fanatics that hide behind religion while they blow the crap out of others are the liars, everyone knows it, FOX NOISE is a public joke and so is this guy's point of view, whatever dude.


Hank Ruark April 4, 2007 1:16 pm (Pacific time)

Cntrtct: Purely appreciate your kind, sensible, complex, complete fill-in...but still invite you to drop curtain, come out in light, and we can pursue to conclusion. Yr points reflect point of view common among many real conservatives, with some truths as is usual in any dialog. But basically it's simply a question of political philosophy --NOT facts-cited-- as you really know. SO how come D.C. collapse on all fronts ? Surely cannot be denied, if you read solid factual daily reports, even in yr own press.


Retired Contractor April 4, 2007 1:15 pm (Pacific time)

Hank. I am not spinning government databases, they speak for themselves, I am the messenger, please don't try to shoot this messenger.. Show me a more accurate database (re: social, economic, educational, criminal , etc., topics) and I'll be happy to look and evaluate. Unfortunately so many people are falling victim to misleading information that the "liberal" way people put out. I predict that the pendelum will be swinging back so objective information will be more prominant, in fact it is happening now. Why else do you think the lefty whacko's are trying to preach using the so-calles Fairness Doctrine for talk radio...they are trying to censor those who provide the "other side".!. The left hates facts, ergo, they evade, divert , cherry-pick and insult those who expose their slanted information. Once again, refute the government's databases! You cannot. Hank, do you even understand what a "primary source" is in academic terms?


Retired Contractor April 4, 2007 12:56 pm (Pacific time)

Please note that my family has been involved with the Oregon educational system going back to the establishment of Willamette University/1842, but discontinued elected-offical activity with the public system in 1974 when they saw what direction (spiraling downward) it was taking (though many family members currently teach within the system). We are way beyond your experience level Hank! Hank: For crime data go to www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm (though just plug into the U.S. Justice Department and cruise around) and for a look at educational failures for the "liberal" way mob, and it is an undiscipiled mob, go to "National Center for Education Statistics, Department of Education" and cruise around and see how liberals have been destroying our educational system and dumbing down our kids while diverting money to the unions, who then use that as leverage to control the democratic party and their sycophants, ad nauseum. A cycle that needs to be broken!
Hank as I mentioned earlier you will not look at this objective data because it literally blows away your propaganda, so what now, ignore, divert and cherry-pick? Hank I'm not exactly some neophyte when it comes to debating with primary source facts with people, regardless of their ideology, plus I've been around for a while myself. My main concern is to keep our citizens safe and to see that are treasury is not flushed down a rathole. The "liberal" way is putting us in danger and destroying our children. As far as your ten years with the Oregon Dept. of Education, then you pretty well prove what I am talking about re: how liberals have failed miserably in that area! P.S. Supt. Castillo's academic background is pretty limited. You know her funding take on providing educational dept. $$ for those groups that advocate that North America belongs to them (and all others should get out)? I do! Well, more and more people are homeschooling their kids or sending them to expensive privates schools, which is an outrage, considering the taxes we pay. A voucher program may help ameliorate this situation somewhat, but...we need a paradigm shift!


Hank Ruark April 4, 2007 11:49 am (Pacific time)

Cntrctr: Yrs re circulation of N/R just spin...you gonna throw out NYTimes, ChicagoTrib,TIME-LIFE, et al, et al, on losing readers ? Leading sociologists blame much of that on falsified conservative-concepts like yr stuff here.


Hank Ruark April 4, 2007 11:42 am (Pacific time)

Cntrct: Yr evasion makes my point: Source NOT T/R, they only channel, as here... Authoritative voice is Dr. Paul Starr, Princeton U, world famous, widely published, top man on this topic. Who you gonna cite ?--Bush's Attorney General ?? Last shot: You have my open invitation to direct-dialog, sparing others-here further obfuscation from either side. , act or bellow into wind


Hank Ruark April 4, 2007 11:33 am (Pacific time)

Cntrctr: On further analysis, you are out on limb re education --evaluation there complex and defied by the methods you choose to mention. With solid bkgrnd there, can furnish you factual data, and "from experience" - ten yrs. in OrDept.Ed. What's yr right-to-speak bkgrnd ? If you seek solid credibility for further dialog, do so via ID as suggested. Common avoidance tactic is generalizations uttered behind anonymity...damages true dialog which is what we seek here. Best personal regards, but come on out into light !!


Retired Contractor April 4, 2007 11:28 am (Pacific time)

Hank suggesting the below source as a primary source is like leading with your chin. Come on, be objective, be professional. It's never too late to re-assess the error of your ways... NEW REPUBLIC (on-line mag) = AIR AMERICA (inprint)---Both fail to deliver objectively, and lose audience! New Republic to Cut Back Publication Schedule The New Republic, the thinning left-leaning weekly magazine whose circulation has plunged in the era of the Web, is overhauling itself with a new configuration of owners, who are investing in a new look for the magazine and cutting back its publication schedule to every two weeks. ... The New Republic’s circulation, which was about 101,000 in 2000, has slipped to slightly more than 60,000 now. THINK AIR AMERICA!


Hank Ruark April 4, 2007 11:27 am (Pacific time)

Cntrctr: If you got it, why not cite it via source, rather than generalize with no proper, checkable documentation ? Been dealing in facts for 60 working years in journalism AND education...beats managing dollars for telling-truth ! I repeat: ID-self and we can save others time-wasting here.


Retired Contractor April 4, 2007 11:11 am (Pacific time)

You are "quite" wrong Hank. All one has to do is look at the crime survey index of our major cities put out by the U.S Justice Department (the primary source!) for the data I spoke of earlier (you will also see that it is the "liberal" way people who are in-charged of the "majority" of these crime ridden area's). Another good source for the concerned citizen/reader out there is to invest in this year's World Almanac (it quotes "primary sources", which you can verify!); in fact look up most anything where you have different social programs that are "performance measured". For example, look at our public schools that are reported on comprehensively (test scores, pupil expenditures, teacher salary's, class size, etc.), they will show how the "liberal" way in literally all locations has failed, especially in the urban area's that they control politically, and it's just the opposite in conservative area's. The evidence is objective, and irrefutable. What many of you should realize, that when a "liberal" is confronted with facts that do not square for them, they will either ignore, or divert (very common!) and cherry-pick something that does not deal with the facts under discussion, or they will insult and demonize and call you stupid (think Ronald Regan), etc. . They will never debate issues and data like that which is mentioned above because it shows both on a latitudinal and longitudinal perspective how the "liberal" way has failed miserably in literally all social/economic area's. Hank the data can be debated, but it speaks (loudly!) for itself, furthermore any data you would provide me that is not from a "primary source" would be academically short-sighted on your part. It's the facts Hank, just like Sgt. Friday told you on television over 50 years ago. Wake-up and smell the coffee!


Hank Ruark April 4, 2007 10:56 am (Pacific time)

Cntrctr: You are dead right re "proof in the pudding" --but sometimes the pudding is stuffed-wrong, too ! So glad to slice you off some known to be factual.


Hank Ruark April 4, 2007 10:17 am (Pacific time)

RtCntrctr: What you state is outside of authoritative and factual record. IF you ID-self to S-N Editor, will gladly send pile of PDF's with sources, data, and professional statements in rebuttal. You can start for self-remediation with Dr.Paul Starr, in current issue of The New Republic, if you dare...


Retired Contractor April 4, 2007 10:12 am (Pacific time)

Jule. Interesting observation you made, but needs more development. Look at all the urban area's accross our country, and you will see that the majority of them are run by so-called liberals. Now compare and contrast these incredibly high urban crime area's with those run by those who take a more common-sense pragmatic approach to law enforcement (aka conservatives). Proof is in the pudding, so to speak. I realize these facts do not square with what you want, but the "liberal" way, regardless of what social/economic situation that it engages, creates even more of a problem. Then it appears that the "liberal" way of correcting the situation that they made worse, is to throw more money at it. Frankly, I'm getting "taxed-out" by the "lberal" way. How about you?


Hank Ruark April 4, 2007 10:07 am (Pacific time)

Anon: Surely agree...but suggest: "What an Administration !!"


Anonymous April 4, 2007 10:02 am (Pacific time)

"Illegal privacy files?" They'd be legal today! That's justification against liberal thinkers? What a world!


Hank Ruark April 4, 2007 10:00 am (Pacific time)

R-Cntrcter: Why add reference to name Bronstein ? Izzy Stone, famous writer, once suffered same-attack vs U.S. official via same pattern,leading to public outcry. You spoil your point by that reference-pattern, for many of us.


Retired Contractor April 4, 2007 9:52 am (Pacific time)

It appears those who engage in criminal behavior, are the only ones (essentially), who will have a problem with law enforcement in most of Oregon. A good sign that we are hiring good caliber officers who are getting adequate training. If we lower the standards for our law enforcement personnel, expect problems to increase. Portland has been experiencing that situation since Neil Goldscmidt became mayor of Portland and brought in a police chief (Baker, real name Bronstein) from the Berkely/Bay area. A close associate of Diane Feinstein. Thousands of illegal privacy files were maintained by these people. Be vigilant.


Jule April 4, 2007 9:40 am (Pacific time)

Hey Joe, you need to check some statistics. Liberals, as a whole, take much more responsibilty than their tight-fisted, "pay your way out of your problems" counterparts. Let's see, WHO hasn't taken responsibility lately? Just to name a few, "Kenny Boy", "The Judge", Cheney, Rove, and let's not forget King George. Not a lot of liberals living high on the hog while the savings and loan paradise crashed. No. Those not affected by sudden squallor? Unrelenting, unconsciounable, greedy conservatives. Too bad they can't take the lead from people who DO get along, who DON'T believe that fighting is the best means to an end, and who CAN change the world for the better. First you have to care about it though, further than your own shiny new car. Liberals aren't perfect, but they try to make a difference. They think about their fellow man more than their wallet. A foreign concept for some, especially those raised with a silver spoon in their mouth. So, do you really think that reporting something unjust to the police, or taking action in court is wrong? Is it only right by you if it's contrived by a rich corporate dog? We're in this together, so that's not a very healthy attitude, Joe.


Hank Ruark April 4, 2007 9:32 am (Pacific time)

Citizen et al: So happens just doing study re impassioned Comments. Can point out that often they come as result of ongoing stress, leading to distorted thinking and overblown words. Suffer same-thing myself !!


Citizen April 4, 2007 7:58 am (Pacific time)

Joe, clearly you are an officer. You would do well to maintain your composure. It is this lack of discipline that causes the majority of the problems between police and citizens. While citizens should always strive to be civil, police officers must do so. Youth and aggressiveness are no excuses for abuse or violations of policies and procedures.


Citizen April 4, 2007 7:54 am (Pacific time)

Sorry that I made the mistake. I spoke with them only a few weeks ago and heard a different statistic. So, with hundreds of complaints, only two people apparently were not satisfied with the outcome? I know of a specific instance where the CRB denied a case. Outright refused to hear it. And, my comments are not meant to disparage the officer who is at the heart of this story. I just don't buy his story that he pulled the wrong weapon. Police do not always tell the truth. I don't think anyone would argue the contrary.


Hank Ruark April 4, 2007 7:32 am (Pacific time)

Let me second Tim's point about civil dialog--always better than childish attack. Founders set 1st Amendment from their own experiences in passionate dialog via Federalist Papers. We need to remember, learn, follow example for passionate issues such as this one. I also can endorse Tim's longer statement, from decades of contact in several cities with same issues.


Tim King April 3, 2007 11:55 pm (Pacific time)

Much is accomplished when people keep their tone civil. I appreciate passion, but I think more people are reached and points are better understood when insults are not leveled directly.


Joe April 3, 2007 10:03 pm (Pacific time)

the Citizen Review Board has heard two cases, get your facts straight before you make stupid comments. The reason why they've only heard two cases is that 99.9% of the complaints are so ridiculous that the tax payers actually waste money listening to cry babies whine about being arrested, they just don't want to take responsibility for their actions, seems like a trend amongst liberals


Joe April 3, 2007 9:28 pm (Pacific time)

The Salem Community Police Review Board has heard cases. This officer acted reasonably. If you don't think so, you try wrestling a weapon away from a person threatening to shoot you. We'll see how you fare.


Tim King April 3, 2007 8:25 pm (Pacific time)

I will consider what you said and this is a good example of what the comment section is meant to be used for, thanks.


Citizen April 3, 2007 7:07 pm (Pacific time)

Tim, is your news agency willing to look into the way the police handles complaint issues? Are you bothered, in the least, that there have been no reviews by the Citizen Review Board? Part of the reason is that the complaint process takes as much time as they want to take. Even "they" do not follow their own written policies. They then argue that they are so "busy" and "overwhelmed" with complaints that they cannot act any faster. This tells me that they have a helluva load of complaints. Or ... they are manipulating the system. They record all of their interviews, yet release neither the recordings, nor the initial complaints that were filed, for independent review. Being in the "know", please think about these comments. As a newsman, please at least look into the allegations. Having served my country in the military, like you, I have always been supportive of law enforcement. So please don't read anything to the contrary into my messages. The number of police shootings should not be the measurement of police brutality and excessive force. -- Or other indications of police malfeasance.


JAFO; April 3, 2007 6:06 pm (Pacific time)

on the docks in Rotterdam the cheese moulds.,near the fish factory.,you can't miss it!,they want us to believe the officer didn't realise he was champering a round? Or was it a revolvo-Taze? I hope for the public's sake he doesn't have access to an automatic rifle!


Tim King April 3, 2007 5:57 pm (Pacific time)

I appreciate that, thanks. I do have a thought on this subject; I have reported news up and down the west coast for a long time and I have never seen a collection of police agencies that go to so much effort most of the time, to not shoot and kill their suspects. I have been out on scenes with Salem PD and Marion County SO and the OSP and I have witnessed this happen time and time again over the years.

I have also been in Salem when a fatal shooting did happen, so it is not like it never happens, but most fatal shootings I have covered were in other areas.

While I know many of these officers, troopers and deputies well, I am not in the position of advocacy. But if we don't recognize their track record I fear we are making a mistake.

I lived in Las Vegas and was steamed at the Coronor's Inquests/Grand jury clearances in some of those shootings involving police officers down there. I just see an immense difference here and I think the proof is in the pudding.

In this particular case, Salem Police disclose the problem themselves, so I don't know what is left to ask, since the officer was within his rights to use either weapon. Was there a clear difference in the size and feeling between the two weapons? I have no doubt that there is, but if he had both out then he was working his options and I can't think farther into that without questioning the Grand Jury's findings.

I've also talked to other police officers in other areas that have never heard of a philosophy like the one they have here, and they always agree that any community that has so few fatal shootings is doing something right.


Citizen April 3, 2007 5:38 pm (Pacific time)

Yeah, right. The officer didn't know that he was holding a gun. A Taser and a gun are very different in shape and feel. And the police often ignore "policies and training". There are no ramifications for doing so. SOME NEWS REPORTER needs to analyze the citizen complaint process to see just how true this is. AND, the Citizen Review Board, since its inception years ago, has yet to HEAR EVEN ONE CASE! I wonder why that is... Tim, it is time for your news agency to look into this. You have always been conservative and objective in the news you have reported, so give it a look. Please!

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